Ch.33 - Dharmakaya, Parinibbāna, Nibbāna and Saṁsāra
Is Seeing Dharmakaya the same as Seeing Nibbana
Seeing Nibbana Performs the Function of Cutting Off Kamma
Coming to Know and Abide in these states are Meditative Experinces, be Careful Not to Meditate on Concepts
Both Samsara and Nibbana are Experienced Within the Basic State of Awareness
[These questions and answers clarify a few key points about these four aspects of reality.]
Is Seeing Dharmakaya the same as Seeing Nibbana
Q: Is seeing Dharmakaya the same as seeing Nibbāna?
A. No, it’s not. When you see Nibbāna at the moment of Path Knowledge no conditioned states remain within awareness. Conditioned states have all come to cessation, which means that mind (or what we think of as active mind) has also come to cessation. So how do we witness Nibbāna then? We witness it in the pure basic ground of awareness itself. All that remains is the pure state of awareness that witnesses this cessation of mind and matter.
So perhaps now you can understand what I mean when I say the mind cannot know the truth of Nibbāna. Why? Because in the moment of witnessing Nibbāna nāma (mind) has come to cessation. Only pure awareness remains. Now you can understand the distinction that I have been making between mind and the display of conditioned mental factors and awareness which is simply that capacity to witness. Prior to seeing Nibbāna, that awareness has only known conditioned states and you have not seen the grounds for their non-arising. So Nibbāna is known by the witnessing awareness, supported by past volition and its effects (which is the heart base in this case, and the other kammic bases of the body that support our experience.) This body of volition we might call Sambhogakaya. It is the sum total of the causes for our appearance.
So there is the knowing of Nibbāna with kammic formations remaining, which is the case in all enlightened beings. The enlightened being is still an expression of the creative process, and continues to express the enlightened qualities of the three Kayas (Nirmanakaya, Sambhogakaya, Dharmakaya). Then eventually, at the end of the life of the Arahant, Sambhogakaya (kamma) comes to cessation, and its manifest expression, Nirmanakaya, also comes to cessation. At that point, there is Parinibbāna, and there is no cause for renewed becoming. Dharmakaya remains unmanifest, unexpressed as anything. Dharmakaya is the basic ground from which all formations arise. Even the Arahant arises within the basic ground of Dharmakaya until the point of Parinibbāna.
So Dharmakaya is the basic ground from which all formations appear, and Nibbāna is the cessation of all formations. Seeing Nibbāna is seeing the non-arising of conditioned states, saṁsāra is brought to cessation when conditioned states are brought to cessation. At that point awareness is like a mirror that has nothing reflected in it. It has no conditioned states appearing within it. At that point Dharmakaya reveals itself in its sky-like spaciousness: unexpressed potentiality, pure potentiality.
The Nirmanakaya is the manifest aspect of reality which appears out of that field of potential, and it does depend upon conditions (Sambhogakaya). So Sambhogakaya is the volitional part of reality, or the causal part or reality. And then there is the awareness as such that witnesses both the display of formations and their cessation.
This witnessing awareness also knows itself, but in order to do so it has to express itself. Saṁsāra is that which it expresses itself as on account of its desire to be expressed, if you like to see it like that. Awareness is not known to itself until it appears within the vehicle that knows it. So in a way, saṁsāra needs to express itself in order for awareness to awaken to the pristine ground of its being.
Something of a paradox if you like, since saṁsāra is the ignorance of the true nature of things and saṁsāra is ignorance of Nibbāna and attachment to conditioned states. But, for all the suffering it produces, it contains within it the way to know Dharmakaya. Nibbāna is the knowledge of the cessation of conditioned states. From within the expression of the manifest we know Nibbāna, and then that knowing Nibbāna eventually brings causes (volition) and its effects to cessation. At that point there is Parinibbāna and the whole process comes to cessation within the original ground of its being, which is Dharmakaya. Phew. Not easy to clarify all that. This is why I want you to keep meditating.
Q: If you recognise Dharmakaya and that prompts enough of an experience of no-self, and you realise there is no-self, would that be enough to realise Path Knowledge.
A: It might prompt considerable letting go of attachment to self but it wouldn’t constitute Path Knowledge. Because Path Knowledge... Path Knowledge is seeing Nibbāna. You have to see Nibbāna, which is seeing saṁsāra come to cessation. The experience of seeing that there is no-self does not constitute seeing Nibbāna.
Q. So why is there a void door to Nibbāna through the experience of no-self?
A. This is the name given to that experience of cessation that comes through the reviewing of no-self in formations (as opposed to reviewing impermanence or suffering). It is while you are seeing no-self that what is called the void door to Nibbāna functions. You are seeing saṁsāra as innately void. It is while you are reviewing no-self and through reviewing no-self one goes from conditioned states to the unconditioned.
So a previous talk I gave was on the three doors to Nibbāna; the sign-less door, the desire-less door and the void door. The door depends on what aspect of saṁsāra you are reviewing when you go to Nibbāna. That determines which door they call it. Do you understand? So if you were reviewing impermanence of nāma or rūpa at the point of seeing Nibbāna this is called the sign-less door. If you are reviewing suffering at the point at which you go to Nibbāna, this is called the desire-less door. So the flavour of the experience depends upon what you are reviewing.
It’s like when you are practising kasiṇa meditations and you are practising water kasiṇa. Whilst it is the same mental states that are present, the flavour of it is the undisturbedness, as opposed to when practising the air kasiṇa, where with the same mental states arising, the flavour of the absorption is the utter stillness of it. They are the same but not the same.
When you are reviewing the body, you are seeing “Ah, there is the body and I am seeing its warmth. I am seeing the body and I am seeing its hardness.” It is the same body that you are looking at. The quality of your experience is determined by what its proximate cause was, and how perception of it arises. Its proximate cause is, “I was seeing rūpa as impermanent or I was seeing nāma as anatta.” So this gives a slightly different flavour at the point of Path Knowledge. The second time you go you might be reviewing nāma as dukkha and that will give second stage Path Knowledge as a slightly different flavour to the first stage.
Q: So you can take different stages with different doors?
A: Yes. And with different proximate causes.
Q: So, if recognising Dharmakaya you enter into the experience enough, with enough no-self you can free yourself?
A: When is that going to happen?
Q: At the moment of Path Knowledge.
A: What is the proximate cause of Path Knowledge?
Q: No-self.
A. No. The previous proximate cause to Path Knowledge is saṅkhār’upekkhāñāṇa. There isn’t any attachment left to conditioned states. Other than that people are only taking momentary cessation of suffering in Dharmakaya, the same as going into absorption. Yes? You do experience the cessation of suffering when you know Dharmakaya, it is unafflicted, undefiled, unimpinged upon, etc. but that which isn’t that, is still experienced by us and identified with. So it is the momentary cessation of suffering.
So, it does have the capacity to start the process of purification. That is why I said that you can practise your best stab at it as a way of letting go attachment. But what doesn’t it let go?
Q. View...?
A. Possibly. But more importantly we don’t get the absolute experience of no-self until we enter into absorption upon it. There is still the view and even the idea of myself as an enlightened being that knows Dharmakaya.
Seeing Nibbana Performs the Function of Cutting Off Kamma
It is the process of going into cessation, the process that brings us to cessation, that performs the function of cutting off craving, clinging, attachment and kamma. Kamma is cut off by path knowledge in stages. Seeing Nibbāna, seeing cessation, seeing conditioned states coming to cessation, seeing that which is of the nature to arise pass away without remainder and then knowing, “I see the basis of it’s non-arising. And it is the non-arising of the five aggregates and their causes which is the causal cessation of suffering.” You have to see that. Otherwise formations will just continue to arise in a moment of forgetfulness.
Q: I see.
A: However, it should be said that when you die there is one point where knowing Dharmakaya can perform the function of taking you to Parinibbāna and that is the point which is when you see Dharmakaya and on account of knowing it there is no residual identification, clinging to, or desire for any conditioned state that arises.
So, that’s different. At that point, just prior to death there may be some unrelinquished attachment which one relinquishes in the death process. That is the process of liberation at the time of death that the Tibetans talk about. On knowing Nibbāna with Arahant Path Knowledge, there is no remaining attachment that could appear in the death moment to cause renewed becoming. Without Arahant Path Knowledge, that brings all attachment to renewed becoming to cessation, whilst we may still know Dharmakaya, there still may well be residual clinging to the idea of self. It needs to be purified in the bardo states after death, because you are still subject to identify with that which arises.
Q: So it is advisable to take Path Knowledge?
A: Well, that is what the Buddha taught us. The Buddha didn’t teach us to meditate on Dharmakaya. He taught us to take Nibbāna.
Q: So the answer to the question is that knowing Dharmakaya does not constitute knowing Nibbāna.
A: Yes. They are different. Dharmakaya doesn’t get experienced without the appearance of the manifest, you understand? So the very nature of that body of ignorance, the purpose of its coming into being is that when cleansed of its defilements, it knows its basic ground. And that is kind of the cycle of coming into being and then waking up. In a way its what we are all here to engage in.
I think that it is really important that this is seen as part of the equation. Without this being explained we are left wondering what is even the point of this coming into being. And I don’t know why the Buddha doesn’t draw it out, apart from in that discourse about what Brahma doesn’t know. He only hints at it: that basic pure state of illumination.
But you know if you look at it only from within saṁsāra you may come to the conclusion that this whole process of coming into being is an act of futility that just needs to be brought as quickly as possible to cessation. It doesn’t explain the purposes of its coming into being, which is to experience the very suchness of it at its basic level. Within that truly awakened experience there is so much wonder and grace and love and compassion and gratitude. It is at that point that it finally reveals itself to have been perfect all along. And the irony if you like is that having seen that we are finally really ready to let go. As the Buddha said, “That for which I have come here to know has been known by me.”
Q: So when you recognise Dharmakaya does that perform the function of the cutting off of kamma?
A: When you die, if your mind stays with awareness and there is no inclination to formations. Then when the heart base becomes defunct, there is no rebirth. Where is the volition? But if there is any idea of self and attachment to it in that moment, then you are going to be reborn.
Q: Which is more than likely because you haven’t taken path knowledge?
A: Yes. You are taking a chance if you are relying on being able to liberate yourself at death. But I think that what one mustn’t do, with regard to spiritual teaching, is leave someone in a state where they would take something which is not the path as the path.
So, what absolutely we know to be the path is this process by which we come to take path knowledge through the seeing of cessation in this very life. This is a process we can review for ourselves and verify as to what function it has or has not performed. So this is what we say categorically is the path as the Buddha taught us. You can state what you like about what others are teaching, as I do. But I still maintain that to bring saṁsāra to cessation with the realisation of path knowledge is the fruition of the Buddha’s path out of suffering.
If you have practised enough and clarified all these subtle states properly within your practice then if you wish, you can take Dharmakaya as your refuge or as your meditative abiding, fine, by all means. But I don’t want to have to end up in some kind of big debate with people who say other things.
Coming to Know and Abide in these states are Meditative Experinces, be Careful Not to Meditate on Concepts
In order to know Dharmakaya, you have to recognise awareness. It is not just a concept for the lower mind to contemplate. It is a meditative experience. So you still have to have a support for awareness. Are you with me? You have to have the manifest to know the unmanifest. If you want me to give my opinion, I do not believe you will have a genuine experience of Dharmakaya until you have seen cessation. Others say that you can see it once you have reached equanimity to formations. This is the ground for the whole Bodhisattva path: the argument that you don’t need to take cessation, but can remain so that you can liberate others. But the problem that I have with this argument is that in order to liberate others you need to know the way to the cessation from suffering. For this you have to be willing to go there yourself. But this is a big debate and not one I wish to get too involved in.
So, instead let’s bring it back to this – prior to your Parinibbāna the universe is experiencing itself as you, and prior to my Parinibbāna the universe is experiencing itself as me. There you go. In order for the universe to experience itself it has to come into being as something to be experienced. It is the same universe experiencing itself as you, as me or as all things. When you see this you see the cessation of that suffering that is caused by perception of separation, by the unwise attention that creates perception of and clinging to self. How does that sound to you?
Q: Okay, well that’s fine. I just needed some direction on this…
A: But I did say this in my book, Beyond the Veil. I said quite categorically that knowing Dharmakaya is not the same as knowing the causal cessation of suffering. But I know what you are saying. I am not overlaying these two things as the same but they do exist within each other. People will work this out for themselves once they see cessation.
All the beings that know Dharmakaya will continue to come into being knowing Dharmakaya until they come to suffering that they can’t bear on account of residual clinging, or until they grow tired of coming into being, and then they will take Parinibbāna. It’s like that. So, knowing Nibbāna completely is the result of the relinquishing of all desire for a renewed becoming. Knowing Dharmakaya doesn’t constitute that.
The Arahant doesn’t pass away with his mind going, “Maybe in my next life I will come back knowing Nibbāna.” He just passes away. There is no grounds for renewed becoming, no desire for renewed becoming. There are lots of beings with all sorts of desire for renewed becoming who take Dharmakaya as the basic ground. Every being that comes into being has Dharmakaya as the basis of its existence.
Otherwise the Buddha wasn’t the Buddha, was he? The Buddha is what? - The one who breaks the cycle so that there is a way out. If it wasn’t that, then he wasn’t breaking the cycle and he wasn’t the Buddha.
And the point is, if you don’t want to bring the argument to cessation you just say, “Well look, there you go, if you take refuge in the Buddha, it’s because you are taking refuge in his Dhamma. Who was the Buddha, what was the Buddha? What is the significance of the Buddha? It’s this. What’s his Dhamma? It’s that which points to this. If you don’t take refuge in his teaching then you don’t take refuge in the fact that he was the Buddha. And that is absolutely fine.
Maybe at the tail end, there are lots of beings who will flirt with these ideas for extremely long periods of time. I think that I have talked about this in another discourse.
When insight is complete enough, then it will see that there is no difference between incarnating in the pure abodes and being here right now. When you see Dependent Origination in one thing you see it in all things. You realise that in a moment of beholding a flower and seeing it as it is you are actually, actually already seeing what needs to be seen. Then you might choose to take Arahant Path Knowledge in this very life.
Some beings may still reflect, “Now hold on a minute, what about beyond this, I want to see that.” So they won’t take Arahant Path Knowledge.
They will still play and want to investigate states further. And there’ll be a point where either they fall out of that and get themselves into a muddle or they have enough Path Knowledge and then reflect that that’s enough and then they will attain up there, as a Deva, as a Brahma, in the Pure Abodes. So it all depends on the individual’s aspiration.
Both Samsara and Nibbana are Experienced Within the Basic State of Awareness
So both Nibbāna and Saṁsāra are experienced within the basic state of awareness itself. When nama (mind and mental states) are seen to come to cessation, what remains as the witness to that? Awareness witnesses cessation. If awareness also came to cessation at that point there would be nothing left to witness the unconditioned state of Nibanna and so there would be no Path Knowledge and no awakening. Those who try to break awareness down and fit it into the bundle of mental states labelled nama are not recognising this. And yet it is obvious. Sure mind cannot experience of be witness Nibanna because by definition Nibanna is the cessation of mind. But awareness remains as the witness. This is the whole basis of the teaching I give at the very beginning asking you to recognise mind as one thing and awareness as another. Mind is merely one aspect of the conditioned states that appear within awareness. Another problem arises if someone thinks that Nibbāna is something that exists. It is merely a term used to describe the non-arising of conditioned states. What is Nibbāna? It is where conditioned states have come to cessation.
There is what arises within Dharmakaya, yes, and then there is what doesn’t arise within it. Saṁsāra is that which arises out of Dharmakaya as the expression of causes and their effects. And Nibbāna is the cessation of this expression of causes and their effects. Dharmakaya is the basic ground of all things. Saṁsāra is the conditioned round of appearances that arise (as Sambhogakaya/ causes and Nirmanakaya/their effects). Nibbāna is the cessation of this process.
Dharmakaya rests within itself as the basic space of pure potentiality. But it is the coming to cessation of that which arises and the seeing of it which is Nibbāna and Path Knowledge. Only that which has arisen has the capacity to know Dharmakaya. And it also has the capacity to know itself. Whilst coming to know ourselves as we truly are, we come to ask the question, “What is the cause for it?” And in time we realise that the answer to the question is that Dependent Origination is the cause for it. Then we make reflection, “Let’s watch the cause of it and let’s bring the cause of it to cessation.”
So it is from this point that you see Nibbāna, while watching the five aggregates and their causes come to cessation. At that point saṁsāra comes to cessation. Not before. Nibbāna doesn’t exist as something in the background. It is the coming to cessation of conditioned states. When do you see it? While watching things come to cessation.
All that is left is Dharmakaya. But you can’t say that you know Nibbāna just because you know Dharmakaya.
Q: Yes I see. You can’t equate Nibbāna and Dharmakaya to be the same thing.
A: No. I think that you need to talk about it in terms of the function of the experience of knowing Nibbāna. You can’t say that Nibbāna is something. You can only know that there is an experience of that. And it is the experience of what? It is the experience of seeing that which has the nature to arise, come to cessation. You see Nibbāna when everything else has come to cessation. But if EVERYTHING has come to cessation what is left to witness this event? Awareness remains as the witness. Awareness has actually always been the witness to all things.
So I have just explained it to you and all that happens is that you work it out in your mind. But real clarification of this will be part of your practice maturing. And that takes how long it takes.
Q: But in a sense maybe it helps people and saves them time with clarification.
A: But you heard this from me two or three years ago. I remember putting it on the blackboard, talking about it before. I’ve talked about it often. This often comes up. And you all think, “Ah now I understand.” This isn’t the first time that I have explained this. But it still takes time to get to the decisive experience. That’s why understanding the energetic basis of existence and all of that, is all part of it, but it is not enough on its own. Don’t pride yourself on views.
It’s like this: one doesn’t actually know, one thinks that one knows Dharmakaya, but one doesn’t actually, and can’t know Dharmakaya until one has either reached saṅkhār’upekkhāñāṇa, or Path Knowledge itself. So you have either got Path Knowledge already or you are right on the cusp of attaining Path Knowledge before the mind can come to stop upon Dharmakaya.
And certainly you can’t take Dharmakaya as the object of your attention without very deep and profound samādhi. It is just too subtle an object. It only reveals itself in the moment that you can leave everything that appears out of it truly alone. Short of that, it is not a genuine experience of Dharmakaya, I mean as far as a meditative experience of it. It is only recognising it. Most people’s meditation on Dharmakaya is a contemplation of Dharmakaya. I can feel this clearly when I check everyone’s meditation.
In the same way, often people practice vipassanā by contemplating insight rather than beholding these processes as they truly reveal themselves within our meditative experience. Many people are bright enough to work all this out in their mind. The danger is though that having done that, we might be inclined to believe that this equates to the definitive experience. It does not.
These are deeply moving and profound spiritual experiences that have a quantum effect upon us that we cannot anticipate by reflecting upon it. Maybe it is useful to discuss these things. But far more useful is to keep practising your meditation.
